🌟 EXPERIENTIAL HOSPITALITY EXPERTS🌟 John Griffiths Savoring the Great Outdoors: Elevating Hospitality Through Culinary Journeys and Local Flavors

Speaker 1: 0:00

Welcome to Talk About TV, where we talk about all things experiential hospitality. I'm your host, Michelle Oliver, and today's conversation is part of a series with members of the Experiential Experts Alliance. This alliance is made up of individuals who have spent many, many decades working in hospitality from every angle everything from purchasing RV resorts from boutique hotels, marinas, people who work in lending management companies the list goes on and on. I know that you are going to gain a lot of insight and information from these remarkable individuals and I welcome you to this entire series of the Experiential Experts Alliance Company that pairs his creative culinary skill with his 20 years in F&B. You've been involved with concept development and multi-unit operations, and now John is bringing his expertise to experiential outdoor hospitality, which is very lucky for us because this changes everything in this space. So welcome John. Thank you for being here with me today. Today is kind of an experiential outdoor interview.

Speaker 2: 1:24

I know, I didn't get the memo. I need to get outside, yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:28

Just can't. I can't stand being inside. So, anyway, thank you so much for being here, and we're really going to focus today for anyone who's watching this on the value of experiences. Right, and I thought I would just kind of toss it to you and let you speak a little bit to the idea of the value of F&B as an experience, rather than like a ice chest full of foil wrapped breakfast burritos.

Speaker 2: 2:01

Well, that is truly an experience also.

Speaker 1: 2:04

Yes, it is, it is.

Speaker 2: 2:07

Well, you know, I think that when I think about you know how F&B really impacts opportunities in outdoor, experiential hospitality, the first thing I think of isn't even, you know, financial, it's about the interaction with the customer right.

Speaker 2: 2:22

And when you have a food and beverage program, you know, in your operation you immediately increase the touch points that you have with your guests exponentially. You know you're going to have people, they're going to be interacting with your customers. You know on the hourly, you know in these facilities and you know these people are trained in, you know, hospitality. They're trained not just in like you know how to provide them, you know towels and so forth, but to anticipate their needs, to interact with them, to create an experience that is, you know, measurable, you know, and authentic. And I think that's really what people look for when they come to outdoor and experiential, you know destinations. Is that authenticity? You know there's hotel resorts every part of the world, you know. But people come to these, you know, experiential opportunities because they want something that's a little more intimate, authentic, you know, and not part of that normal, you know hospitality or hotel type atmosphere and I think that you know developing an authentic food and beverage program really can benefit that a lot.

Speaker 1: 3:25

Yeah. So let's just talk kind of organically about this and I'm not meaning to gloss over all of John's history here, but you've been all over the space and you guys, anybody who's interested. You can go to his LinkedIn profile, you can search and find interviews with him, because he's kind of a hot commodity right now because of your understanding of the space and bringing it to us. What have you seen? I'm kind of going off our, our timeline or our agenda already, but because this is what's coming to my mind what have you seen when you came into this outdoor hospitality space? What's the biggest gap that you think is missing, that you're filling?

Speaker 2: 4:17

Well, I think it's that connection to you know, providing people more than just a service when it comes to food and beverage, right, I think that a lot of operators in the space tend to think of food and beverage is just like let's fill the fridge with things people might need, you know, let's give them the bare minimum of what they could expect. And I think that there's so much more to be achieved and so much more value to derive from food and beverage and just giving people hamburgers and hot dogs in the refrigerator or ketchup and mustard on the shelves. There's so much more that you can provide for them. And we see that right now, like food tourism is coming to outdoor hospitality right now.

Speaker 2: 5:01

I mean, the KLA survey I read this year says 36% of people are seeking food tourism as part of their experience, and that was a number two trend overall, you know, and these are campers, these aren't just clampers, these are people that are coming from all walks and all levels of the market to experience the outdoors destinations and they want good food when they're there, you know. So you know, we see also that, like you know, people are willing to spend more and travel more. That seems, survey showed that people are willing to spend $300 more per trip on average, and they're willing to travel 140 miles more to find a destination that has quality food and beverage within it. So like people are looking for these things and it's time to to meet the guests where they're at, you know.

Speaker 1: 5:50

I love that. It's so true. We are educated, we are savvy, there's money to spend and even when there's not, food is a priority, like if you're on a budget or whatever. People have their own special diets and we know what we like, we know what we want and we're used to having it right. So let's talk about some of those touch points.

Speaker 1: 6:15

I know that I recently was at it was a huge like convention resort place in Florida and the first thing that I wanted when I walked into that hotel wasn't there. So I was like I've been traveling, I came on the, I guess I got an Uber and that was an ordeal. You know you're coming in from whatever your travel experiences, and I was just thinking Pellegrino or like sparkling something with lime. So what are the touch? That would have been a number one touch point where they could have made a difference in my world, right, but instead I had to walk across this great big, giant lobby and wait at the desk until someone showed up. And it was a really nice hotel, I mean, it was a resort. So talk to me a little bit about how you address touch points and outdoor hospitality. What do you see as like the first opportunity?

Speaker 2: 7:18

Well, I mean, the first opportunity could be as simple as, like you said, like having some of things in the accommodation for guests, right, you know people are coming in, you know they don't know exactly what to expect. So, from that first moment, if you can, if you're trying to make an impression on your guests, and they show up in the tent or the cabin or whatever accommodation type you have and there's a little food and beverage sitting there for them, that's complimentary, that's an incredible, you know, expression of welcome. You know, like you don't know how long or how far they've been traveling, but most of the time these destinations require more than just getting out of the airport and catching a transfer.

Speaker 2: 7:54

You know, like you have to make an effort to get there, you know, and sometimes you might not have time to stop to load up your, your cooler or whatever it might be. So being able to have something like that is just really great. But I'm going to tell you one story. This is this one I'm not going like. This is not my, my, my little stick here. But I had a conversation with a client recently and we were talking about, you know just the, the elevation of experience that this gives, that that food and beverage can really have on guests, and he broke it down really simply and he said you know the hours of the day when people are dining, right, let's just say dinner right at the end of the day, like, people come to these spots a lot of times because there's destinations they want to see, nearby a national park, lots of wilderness, they want to be active.

Speaker 2: 8:40

But the hours you pay for, right, as someone who visits a glamping destination, a customer, right, you're paying for those hours between, like you know, five and eight PM when the sun's starting to set. You've got, you know, whether you're nestled in one of those, like sandstone canyons in Utah or, you know, atop a hill in Texas, hill Country, like those are the hours you pay for, why do you want to get back in your car and drive out and try and find food? Or why do you want to try, you know, and, as an operator, why do you want guests to leave during that period of time? That's when the memories are made, right? Those are the hours that people pay the premium for.

Speaker 2: 9:18

So, providing food and beverage, you know it doesn't have to be a restaurant, but having opportunities for people to stay on property, to purchase on property and to give them a quality experience, whether that's retail combined with, you know, some outdoor cooking facilities, or maybe it is some type of quick, fast or full service. You know restaurant type operations. You want to create that connection with your guests. You want them to sit down, reflect on the day on your property, right, you want them to build that, you know.

Speaker 1: 9:51

Yes, I love that, and that's what you're calling the golden hour. Yeah, I mean, that's that's. Yeah, I love that.

Speaker 2: 9:57

Those are the hours you pay for when you go. Like I think about it. Like I wake up early in the morning and, sure, sunrise is a fantastic too, right, why would you want to have to wake up first thing in the morning? Oh, I'm hungry, let's get out of here, we got to get food. No, you want to wake up, have a cup of coffee or tea, grab something really like to eat, maybe before you go out and be active.

Speaker 2: 10:17

You know, like the bare minimum to me is just bridging those kind of buffers, the morning services and evening services, right, that really can, you know, impact the guest experience. They're mostly going to all be out during the day, you know, at most of these destinations. But giving them options early in the morning, as simple as coffee and tea and maybe, you know, local pastries that are baked, you know, and brought on site, and then something in the evening, whether that's again like retail options that are out there or, you know, all the way to full service it just really has an exponential impact, not just on the bottom line, right, there's plenty of data out there that shows that if you provide food and beverage services, your ADR ceiling can lift significantly. You know people will travel for it.

Speaker 1: 11:00

Absolutely. I love this and I know a lot of people are aware of this because of all the resources and education that are out there, but so few people really take into account the power of story and in my mind, like I work with clients a lot on this like the story, the brand, you know the story brand and all of that. And when I think about food, that's where what we're really doing is inviting these people in to kind of be the hero of their own story, right? So they get to come and they get to have their adventures and then they come back and I love what you're saying about it's kind of like the memories and the emotional tie that they have to the property and that's where the stories will also come from. So you don't want it just to be that they hike the Grand Canyon or whatever, but that they did come back and then they have those intimate, emotional, it's connection, right. That's what drives all of us like so what was that adventure like? And and we know that food is the way it's like.

Speaker 1: 12:08

I don't know it's going to sound so corny, but you're you're the corny culinary chef. You know food is a story. It's, it's the way to the, the connection of the body and the heart and the soul, and and then it can carry the, the story of your brand, right. And it's always educating, like when you said local croissants or whatever. That's a whole different experience than oh, there's a I don't know what they call, like a breakfast bar or something with 1200 things. No, you get a really exquisite croissant that has a story behind it, right.

Speaker 1: 12:48

So, powerfully emotional, yeah, I mean that's what people want.

Speaker 2: 12:52

They want an authentic experience. They want they're coming to whatever corner of the globe. This is to experience what life is like there, what the interaction with the natural environment and the people are. So they want to eat the food that's produced there. They want to experience that. You know, like that is a real thing. You know, having a locally sourced menu. It doesn't have to be big. I mean I can. This isn't the kind of podcast where I feel like we're like stating numbers, but I mean I got a ton of them back here.

Speaker 1: 13:19

But you can. You know good you are at that job. All your stats, go ahead, share them. Well, people we've found that people are.

Speaker 2: 13:27

You know, guests are really happy with menus that are over 40% smaller than they might normally diamond. So you don't need a lot of options, you just need a few quality options for people, exactly.

Speaker 2: 13:38

Local options, connect them to where they are, to your story, like there's nothing that tells a better story than a server explaining like, oh well, our little beats salad here. These beats come from a farm, you know, down the road, and we've got a local creamery that makes the goat cheese, you know, about 100 miles away, and this is just really fantastic. We're happy to share it with you right now. I mean that, just you know. It's fantastic. And if you you find a local beekeeper, you know you sell some local honey, like you know, like you can. There's so many little things you can do that are, you know, their commonplace in restaurant world right now, in all walks, in all areas, you know and from an operational point.

Speaker 2: 14:18

we really exploded in the last few years because a lot of chefs and and you know hospitality business owners have moved out of big cities since the pandemic and they're in these smaller towns you know in the St George's, you know in the like, the Aspen's and the rifles and all these other small towns building these small businesses. So there's a there's even more opportunity to build these connections now than there was five or 10 years ago.

Speaker 1: 14:44

Yes, you know people are seeking meaning, right, and they want to feel something. So everything you said addresses that. You know, like what, what does this mean? And when you can provide meaning and emotion and an experience that expands someone and you can do that with a meal and it's delightful, so I love that. Okay, so talk to me.

Speaker 2: 15:09

I'm going to jump to one thing, because that's not because that's what we say. We use exactly your last phrase where you said like it adds right. We use the phrase additive right. And we've ever been on a vacation where you go, somebody say oh, you know, it was really amazing, like the views were fantastic, we saw these great things and the food was okay, like that that's subtractive right in your mind.

Speaker 2: 15:30

Okay, well, it was good but it was still good enough because the food were moved from that experience right. So we want our food and beverage to be additive. It doesn't have to be exceptional, it doesn't necessarily have to be the reason people travel there, but it needs to be additive. You need to be something like you know. We went there. Oh my gosh, it was our first time to you know Yellowstone, and it was magnificent. And the place we stayed at, the tents were beautiful and so well appointed, oh, and they had these amazing croissants in the morning, Like that's it.

Speaker 1: 16:01

Yeah, I love that Exactly.

Speaker 2: 16:05

Right.

Speaker 1: 16:06

Right.

Speaker 2: 16:07

And it's to your.

Speaker 1: 16:09

I love that. And it also to your earlier point where hospitality is anticipating what that guest secretly desires before they ever even know it. Right, and every time you can provide a little moment. That's like you were saying oh and oh and yeah. And, by the way, the breakfast and there was something like it was freshly squeezed orange juice, like that's the difference. Right, it's so simple.

Speaker 1: 16:37

It's so tiny and so everything. Yeah, okay, so let's talk about providing premium outdoor cooking solutions, because some of these people, depending on the resort they come back and and they might have been, I don't know fishing or hunting or you know, there's all kinds of options on the theme of what experiential means. So if they want to cook at their, at their site some people do, some people don't, but they like the idea of maybe being cooked for, I don't know, talk to me about that. The options, yeah.

Speaker 2: 17:13

So obviously I'm a restaurant person so we love to kind of talk about that full service experience. But there are a lot of opportunities and outdoor hospitality where you can find, you can meet your guests where they're at, like you said, they're active, they're a little more self sufficient, you know, and you want to provide an experience where they're, they're involved in that and you know we've done some projects over the years where we, you know, bring in chefs to lead kind of experiential dinners where they lead the guests and cooking their own meal over live fire or a grill or whatever you know, and the guest is part of that experience is communal and that, you know, that process has led us into like well, how do we ensure that we get good quality cooking equipment to these locations, because that's really important. You know, like it's great to have, you know, open fire cooking for people, but you have to wait 30 minutes to like get the wood ready.

Speaker 2: 18:03

You know, until you have to cook on you got to know how to maintain it and I'm a chef and been one for many years and and that is a task in itself right. So we partnered a while back with Isla, which is an outdoor kitchen company and most of the stuff.

Speaker 2: 18:18

To date it's pretty much like you go to Home Depot if you're a developer and you pick out some, some cheap little grill and you put it in your properties or you have to go this route through you know a three tier retail system here in the US where you spend you know 20 grand a piece for some really premium grills. And we found this partnership with Isla and they were. They jumped on board when we started explaining what outdoor hospitality is, what we're trying to do with food and beverage, because nobody's going at it from the professional kind of wholesale mindset that we are where we're going to put it into resorts, partner with resort operators to do this, and these things are just fantastic.

Speaker 2: 18:56

They're all, like you know, aluminum, marine grade aluminum. They don't rust. The grills are for a professional chef. These things are fantastic, and what this does is it provides an opportunity whether you're going to build something like communal in the center of your property where guests can kind of utilize it when they need to themselves. But these things have, like, really great quality. You know, stove top burners on them. They have, obviously, the grills that are gaspired. They all run on propane. They're just, you know, they last forever. They look beautiful and people can come in a couple of clicks and they start cooking, right.

Speaker 2: 19:30

So you give them options like, maybe you just stock your, your lodge or you know your retail spot with, just, you know, good quality local foods, a few steaks, some chicken, things like that, where people can kind of come in and shop, and then you give them this tool, right, and then if you want to do some dinners once a week or a couple times a month, you can hire a local chef and they come in and they can use that stuff and do magic with it, right, because they know, you know they can come in with from their prepped site and they come in and deliver a really exceptional experience for your guests. They can make a reservation. You can book this stuff in advance. I mean the, the ones we do they all book in advance and we try to get them to book when they reserve the actual site so that your partner in this has, you know, has kind of the funds in place and they got the commitment. But this just provides an exceptional experience. You know, people interact with each other. That's the other thing we were talking about earlier, that when people are dining together right in these settings, they're compact, right, they're next to each other, right, and they're all talking about the day, right, and that was one of the best things I've always liked about some of these experiences like, hey, where did you do today? You know, we went here right. Oh, we found this little like really beautiful waterfall. And, you know, when you go out tomorrow, they share these experiences again, this is additive, right. It amplifies the experience that the guests are having, you know.

Speaker 2: 20:50

So whether you put these grills at the, at the tent sites, you know, or the cabin sites, or you put them in a larger communal setting, you're going to have an opportunity for them to again stay on your property during those peak hours. Let them be there during sunset, experience what you know as an operator. Right? You found you spent all this time researching this location or you've loved it for many years. Let them see the same thing. Right that you don't want to just wake up, hop in the car, go get breakfast, do their thing and come back after the sunset just to jump back in the tent. Right, like you want them to spend some time there. So give them the reason to do that.

Speaker 1: 21:26

That's wonderful, john. I just I really appreciate how deeply you understand the guest journey and how you're so passionate about it, as you should be, and it really is so important. These are the areas that people tend to neglect, like you can think of it as, oh no, because you know it's. There are a lot of moving pieces and parts when you're building a property and a business like this, and oftentimes I guess I want this to be a positive statement but it just costs a lot of money, you know. So people can start cutting corners, but where you would be tempted to cut a corner is the exact area where you should expand and invest, because those are the areas that are going to make you stand out and that will they will bring back to you revenue. So when you're speaking of this, it's just wonderful Most hardly anybody does that to have an elevated grill and that you can brand or color whatever the thing is, and then all of the variety of experiences that you just shared.

Speaker 1: 22:40

It becomes a vehicle for that community Again, for those, those moments that they will never forget, because that's where I met this person and and it could be, you know, they I don't want to say they kill it, you cook it, but that's what keeps coming to my mind In those situations where they went out fishing or whatever. But you actually do it for them People, they want to. It's like the whole term glamping right. You want to have the adventure but you don't want to suffer, so nobody wants to wait for 20 minutes and help. The coals all are evenly glowing, absolutely.

Speaker 2: 23:22

Yeah, I mean like that's the entry point, right, and then from. There you can like you can really grow with it and I think that's one thing that people need to understand is like you don't have to jump in and do the big thing right away, you know, but if you are there and you want to explore it like that's the first thing.

Speaker 2: 23:37

I mean you know you're going to have those. Things are going to look fantastic and when you put those up on your website, you know, like showing your accommodation with something like that right out front, you're sending a very clear message to your prospective customers Like we've anticipated what you need. You don't want to cook on a charcoal grill. We get it.

Speaker 2: 23:54

You probably don't even cook on a charcoal grill when you're at home. You know why do you want to do it when you're on vacation and you're way more active. You know you don't have the data plan Like just come in, like we've got these things taken care of. You know, like that's what you're trying to express through F and B is that you're anticipating their needs. You know.

Speaker 1: 24:09

Exactly, and isn't it funny how we really do. The human brain just remembers the bad. Like I was thinking about a great meal I had and I really needed salt. There was like no salt and pepper on the table. That was such like I remember. I don't know that comes, just came to my mind. People will remember these really strange things and not the highlights. So every opportunity you have to differentiate yourself and this is one of them. Okay, we have so much to talk about. So developing scalable partial or full service F and B programs we started to touch on that a bit. Do you want to share a little bit about, like, how you work with that, different, different ways that you could actually come into a, into a business and help Partial, full, there's so many variations on that theme.

Speaker 2: 25:04

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 25:04

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 25:05

Well, part of it is just what we were kind of alluding to with. You know, developing some kind of retail presence is is. You know, maybe you don't want to invest in building a full service kitchen. You know there's certainly. You know costs with that. We totally understand it.

Speaker 2: 25:20

But what we think is really important is to explore food and beverage opportunities early on. It's like when you're, if you have the opportunity, there's people out there listening to us, they're thinking about developing. You know a resort, do it in pre development, explore the potential in the community. You know, understand what the outlays going to be. You know. That way you can set up the services that you might need on the property early on. You can run those things through the ground. You can make sure that you have the electricity you would need, etc. Right, so that should you grow into that, right, it's already there, you know, and the outlay is very minimal when you, when you figure that you know and then when you do determine food and beverage, there's so many ways you can go with the food and beverage like retail elements are super successful and smaller operations where you have, you know, self sufficient people.

Speaker 2: 26:10

But if you build even the most basic, you know kitchen setup and it could be in a lot of destinations. It could be like we talked about the kitchen with like a pergola over it that maybe only runs. You know, six or seven months of the year when you have fair weather, you know that can be utilized by a third party operator, like a partner or a local chef or caterer, to come in and do dinners. You know, and it could be as often as every weekend. We have some that run, you know, four or five days a week during high season, where you know there's an organized dinner every night and those are really really successful. And then you can scale from there.

Speaker 2: 26:45

You know, once you get the basic structure, you don't have to buy $100,000 in equipment right up front. You know you can kind of phase in and say, okay, we're going to set this up from what we consider in the business of finishing kitchen and that allows a caterer to come in and know that they've got a licensed facility right that they can kind of come into. They can wash their dishes when they show up, they can, you know, heat their food or keep it warm and they've got tables to work on. You know, and then they can do something really essential and that gets into. One thing that I also don't think people talk enough about in these resorts is the benefit of food and beverage. When you're booking large events, it is essential.

Speaker 2: 27:22

You know there's so much money to be had in, you know in the corporate retreat now like since the work saying has taken off, like companies are shedding their leases significantly and trying to find better ways for their employees to interact and and these retreats are incredible.

Speaker 2: 27:38

My, my wife's employer did this years ago, two years ago, and now all the money they they save from their lease here in San Francisco they now spend on twice a year retreats for their employees and they go to some places like this and they rent the whole thing out. You know and this isn't you know an exceptional opportunity for operators to really get great revenue and food and beverage there is. You know, if you talk to anybody in the regular hospitality world, hotels, banquet revenue is. It's just so easy. It's very, it's a very good opportunity to, you know, provide a baseline for your resort in the early years. You know you can book in advance the revenues there, deposits. It really helps with cash flow. So we just think that there's so many things we're never going to cover at all in this fight.

Speaker 2: 28:26

I know, I know, I know it's just, there's just a lot of opportunity out there and you don't have to think, oh, I've got to build a restaurant, it's going to cost me a million dollars, Like this, isn't that? You know?

Speaker 2: 28:37

like there's a lot of solutions out there with you know food truck kitchens and these trailers and some of these you know containers, ship kitchen companies that are out there and we also designed some. We got some designs for modular kitchens that we're doing also, which you know just kind of kind of join any type of tent or cabin structure that you might have. There's just so much out there to explore.

Speaker 1: 29:02

Yeah, this is real. I know we can't talk about all of it, but I do want to just shine a light on this aspect of what you bring to the table, because you know when, when we might come to you with a client that I've done a lot of work, a lot of work with them on their vision and their guest journey and their story and brand and all of this, and you are so sensitive to that right and the budget. I had a restaurant, and I know that the first I had no idea, like I would have completely failed if it weren't for the guy I happened to meet, by divine Providence, that had opened six restaurants, because the first thing you think is this is this is totally overwhelming and we don't tend to think of all these variations that you're presenting. So, though, john, you come and anybody that's listening, it doesn't matter what your, what level you are, and your can understand your vision and your brand and carry it from there and say, okay, based on your budget and your property and your brand, these are different options that that would add, you know, not only additional revenue, but an incredible experience.

Speaker 1: 30:21

In simple ways, you so it's not like you have to think all or nothing, and you're so creative with that. When I was listening to you share some things and I don't know one of our meetings, I was just. It's incredible how sensitive you are to the client, so I just want to shine a light on that. So don't be afraid of F and B, because people get afraid and then they do them the least instead of taking a step. Take a step in wherever you are, and then you can always grow from there. Is that safe way to say it?

Speaker 2: 30:57

Absolutely absolutely. You iterate, you know, just start small and yeah you know, like that's one thing, I think people a lot of time.

Speaker 1: 31:05

Now you froze a second. I don't know if that's me or you. Okay, I can say that again. Yeah, you're back to iterate, that's that's the phrase like.

Speaker 2: 31:15

That's what we use a lot is you need to iterate, right. Don't don't just come in with the first idea you know from from the restaurant world. There's an old saying, like Mike Tyson had. He said everybody has a plan until you step in the ring, get punched in the face, right, that's what it used to be like opening restaurants.

Speaker 2: 31:30

You can spend years developing the perfect restaurant for this location. You open the doors and we used to always say throw out your business plan on the way back, because at that point the customers will tell you what they want, and so we always try to move in a very simple, like the simplest way is always the best, right. So find connections that are locally, find what's attractive to people in the community. That's one of the things that drove us into this market was just the authenticity that it allows for right, we can do something super unique every single time. We don't have to like cookie cutter it. We don't work off of these templates. We have data, we have all these things, but we just love the experience that it's just so fulfilling to connect an operator with you know, a local bakery or local chefs or food truck companies, or developing the stuff and managing alongside them. That's one of our greatest pleasure is just connecting on these things.

Speaker 1: 32:25

It's so much fun, so much yeah, this, and and if you're at a place in your business where I know some people can get, because it can be overwhelming and you get to a point and you're like, why am I doing this again? This can be that injection that just reconnects you to why you're doing this and it's about supporting local businesses, to like there's just so much joy in every aspect of this. I was going to ask you something. I forget what you just said because, anyway, let's go on to this. So, oh, the question was why people might hesitate. Well, because it could be overwhelming. But I did want to ask you because you shared at one point a formula for, for how to determine when to add like a I don't know, you tell me like a more of a full blown operation. I think it's a little bit about that, because I think it's important.

Speaker 2: 33:24

Sure, well, we have what we call the Goldilocks zone, and so that's like a few couple couple things. Geographically, it's usually when you're between 30 and 100 miles of a population center. Now that doesn't have to be like a huge city. It could be like the largest close town, like we were talking about Zion we would use, like St George and this is just top of my we do see George, that reference right, it's a pretty good town and I think that's the best opportunity that you have, the best opportunity for success. When you're within 30 to 100 miles, that means that you're going to be far enough away from the options that it's can. It's more convenient for guests to stay with your property than to drive out and find more options, right, but you're also close enough that you're going to be able to receive the food product that you need, the supply frequency that's required. The most important thing is the staff that you're going to need, right, you need to be in proximity of a decent amount of population to staff your operations. And then we like to see an ADR floor of about $150 to $200. You know. Anything above that, you're in really good shape. That means people are tending to spend a certain amount and they expect to spend a certain amount of food and beverage in addition to that when they budget right. So if you follow general hospitality norms and hotels and so forth, you can you can almost bank on 20 to 40% of additional revenue based on your ADR. For a full service food and beverage out there right, if you do it well and the key count, you need to have a minimum of 20, 20 keys on property. That's anything above that.

Speaker 2: 35:00

We start to see options.

Speaker 2: 35:01

That doesn't mean, like you go full board restaurant although we have clients who have full side, full scale restaurant with 13 keys, you know, but it's a premium option and they bring people, they allow people to come in from all properties.

Speaker 2: 35:13

So there's a lot of ways that you can, you know, slice it off. But generally if you follow those, if you're within those kind of parameters, then we think you're a prime candidate for some type of elevated food and beverage. So that you know retail it could be, you know, stocking a lot of really great products, working with a caterer that might drop off. You know really high quality lunch, you know picnic lunch options for guests or you might want to offer like really high quality grocery items for people to kind of cook on site doing warm breakfast. It can be anything simple like that you might start with just like a coffee bar and retail and have a caterer drop off some. You know we call grab and go foods. You know, every couple of days, all the way to having a full service restaurant on site. Anything within those parameters usually is where we're starting from.

Speaker 1: 36:01

Okay. So here's a question for you, let's say, because this is happening a lot in the space right now. Let's say I own, like an RV resort that, and I want to get on the bandwagon of adding cottages and glamping sites and expanding. I have the room to expand and I want to get out of that. That. I'm only a, you know, an RV resort, so I'm interested in F and B, but I'm see seasonal and there's all these things to consider, right? So the biggest thing that would pop up in my head is how am I going to staff this? Like I can come to you and you can set everything up and on the scale that's appropriate for me and we can work through the branding and all of that. But how am I going to staff that? Would it be internal staff? Is that something you can help with? Can you run the operation like? What are my options around?

Speaker 2: 37:01

sure, and that's, you know, like when we still get a property, one of the biggest things we look for, as I mentioned, with staff, right, you had to be in proximity to have a market available to staff your restaurant. We do. We are growing into management roles now in partnership with, with operators that we consult with, and that's one of the advantages that we saw, and we're trying to solve a problem that we noticed, you know, kind of early on we come in, we have this great program. We'd spend a lot of time setting it up, but then there was just, you know, the normal turnover would cause a lot of hiccups in the systems and we were noticing that they weren't performing well over time and we want to always find options to support our customers, to make sure they're they're putting their best foot forward every day. So we now offer management services. We don't hire employees ourselves, so we don't have employees on site, but we will. We will manage that. The recruitment, the retention and the training right. That's that's really important. I think that's what you know helps set us apart is that we have such a dynamic team that has so much experience in developing elevated you know hospitality services that we can train really good people and we think that if you treat people well to provide them great, you know great benefits themselves.

Speaker 2: 38:12

You know my old employer, the CEO of our restoration hardware.

Speaker 2: 38:19

He had a great saying he said if I expect my customers to deliver first class service to my customers or if I expect my employees to deliver first class service to my customers, I must first deliver first class service to my employees.

Speaker 2: 38:31

You know like you have to take care of your employees, so you know recognizing the value that the employees have in your food and beverage program, like we said early on, the number of touch points are going to have with your guests.

Speaker 2: 38:42

These are really high value employees and you have to look at them as such. Don't think about it as like we need to provide a minimum wage and a basic, you know environment for them to work and look at them and try to find people that you think are going to have an outsized impact on your guests right like you want people that are going to be interactive, connect, love, where they are and what they're doing. You know that's so much more important in hiring is the disposition of your employees rather than the skill set we can teach them how to flip a burger right. We can teach them how to make an espresso, but we can't teach people how to be genuine, sincere, love what they're doing and be compassionate to the people that they're working with and toward. So we think those are really important things when you talk about staffing.

Speaker 1: 39:31

Yeah, this is a whole nother cut. This is where my heart is. This is a whole nother conversation that we should have one day. And I think I mean overall in hospitality. I think we tend to attract those types of people, but it's like love cover it. What is it in the Bible? Something like love cover it? A multitude of sins, it's true.

Speaker 1: 40:00

And when you have the right people that, like in my restaurant when I had a, I had like a dinner theater and I would hope that something would go wrong, because those opportunities are what allow your staff to shine, and I have had every business I've had. I don't know it's the staff and it is because I treat them as if they were a guest and they have no. It's like you're training them with every interaction you have how they are going to interact with others. It's just a trickle down effect. So the fact that you even brought that up is just says so much about who you are, john, and I absolutely love it.

Speaker 1: 40:43

And so imagine this person out there who's either developing, building, expanding, or you just are considering getting into this space, when you have someone managing an asset like your F and B, who understands how to manage your people according to your brand, but with the right hospitality kind of. I know, randy, my business partner always calls it the carer gene. It's it's having that as who you are and just how you interact, like you are solving a lot of problems for people Because you could come in, like you said, and have the right food and the right experiences, and then the person who delivers it it just sneers at you All of a sudden. It doesn't matter anymore, it's in the delivery, like everything matters. So I just absolutely am thrilled that you brought that up. That's the added, that's the added spice to our conversation.

Speaker 2: 41:49

Yep, I mean, it's so, it's so true. I mean there's not a an experience I've had in a restaurant or any type of dining establishment the world over where poor service consistently I mean in every experience poor service is far more difficult, is far more detractive than poor food. Right, you can have food that's not great, or maybe it's mis-ordered or it just doesn't, but if you have a guest, a server who's going to connect with that guest and be sincere and apologize and make it right, it's so easy to gloss over that People understand that there's a mistake. Oh, you know what? You know, we just we ran out of this and I didn't know. I'm so sorry, you know, rather than someone like we're all out, what do you want, you know? Like it's just that, it's just it's so true.

Speaker 2: 42:40

But it's just that little bit right, and it was always hard early on when I was a young chef, to like actually recognize that. Yes, sometimes that server on the floor is far more valuable to the business than I am Right, because no matter how hard I work on the food, if they don't deliver it in a friendly way and enjoy the time that they spend with that guest and help make that an additive experience, then it doesn't matter how much effort I give or my team gives in the kitchen Like it's just not going to be the same. So we always look at that. Like you know, the people that we hire are so much more important than the quality of the food. I mean we still want great quality food, don't get me wrong, but like one, of the first things is like when we get to that operational point, it's like we've got to have a.

Speaker 2: 43:25

Really we always want a great training program and we want to make sure that, if we're not involved over the long term, that the operators really understand and whoever's managing that business for them day to day understands. You know the ethos that we want to instill in our team that's delivering those services.

Speaker 1: 43:46

It's wonderful yes, and every I mean the food story having them understand what you're doing in the kitchen, and it's really just. You know what it's. We all want the same thing, no matter what we're doing or who we are, whether we're a guest, we're all human beings and we're all looking for a better experience, more connection. So if it's a good thing or a bad thing that brings us together to connect, you know it's just the skill of the server understanding oh, I get to connect more because something went wrong. That that's an asset, right. So we're just I think we're all just so many, many barriers are breaking down and those, those breakdowns offer opportunities for us to build quality and connection and everything that that we want.

Speaker 2: 44:41

So, and we can do it outside- yeah, right, one more it's out to our hospital. Yeah, absolutely. This trigger another story, except you froze again, like you interact, oh so now you're going to have to say it twice.

Speaker 2: 44:53

Okay, so this just jogged another one story. So this is our veggie side story. So we had a project and it was an existing full service operation on a resort and everybody's anonymous, so their identities can be saved. But they came to us and say, hey, listen, we've got this operation and you know it's okay, but people aren't really spending as much money as we thought they would. They just like they're ordering, they eat a bunch of sides and you know, like our, you know we just we don't feel like it's really doing really well. We want to find some better, you know better menu options and so on and so forth.

Speaker 2: 45:30

And so we started looking at some of their data on their point of sales system and we did. We noticed like, okay, people eat a lot of side dishes, but their, their truck cabbage is really low and but we just like it pinged in our head one time, these are all vegetable sides of people are ordering. Like, oh, hey, well, what do your servers say about vegetable options people have? Is there's no vegetarian items on their menu? And like, well, I don't know, we are staff kind of. You know, we've had trouble with staff and they're not really great and you know, you know they turn over, maybe once or twice. Someone said they wanted some, some vegetarian food, but you know, it's not not a significant demand. And we got in there and we started talking to some of the people that had been there a long time and like, oh yeah, people always ask for vegetarian food.

Speaker 2: 46:11

There's so many vegetarians and vegans out there we're like oh well, no wonder they're only ordering side side vegetables. That's all you have. You know you have one salad and a bunch of and a few vegetable sides, so it was like one little piece of like the chain right the break in the chain where they weren't. They didn't have that trust amongst their staff to like provide feedback about the guests were amongst all the other. You know challenges of the day. Right, we understand there's a lot of things to manage in these properties, not, you know, outside of food and beverage. But you know, having that trust and that connection with your employees to provide feedback and just recognize oh hey, you've got a lot of vegetarians that are showing up.

Speaker 2: 46:49

You know you got people that really want to spend money in here but you don't have the products available to them. We put some vegetarian items on there, grew their salad section a couple items. You know I'm a massage. It made no other real changes and you know, within months it was, like you know, significant, like I was 25 black and white, they're, they're check average and and then they started getting great feedback from customers.

Speaker 2: 47:12

Right, the customers weren't saying anything because it was just like they were like we were talking about earlier. It was just a subtractive experience, like well, it's fine, they didn't have any vegetarian things, we're in the middle of nowhere, we didn't expect it. But once you had it for people like oh my gosh, we went to this place it's in the middle of nowhere and they had vegetarian food for us Like it was just like a huge difference in the feedback they got. And I mean, that was like one of our, you know, like we're really excited about that. That was just another solution that we were able to provide.

Speaker 1: 47:41

You should be, it's yeah, you know it's so. It's so funny, isn't it? It's so simple, it's simple communication, and this is not a plug for what I do, but I can't, I can't, I can't help just mentioning that one of the things through the reality that we do is we offer kind of a unique feedback opportunity for all kinds of resorts, because it's like you said, they just never thought to really sit down and ask their staff. Well, they, the staff it doesn't mean that they couldn't come and tell you, but it doesn't matter enough to them. There's no incentive, right.

Speaker 1: 48:21

So, when somebody comes, a guest comes, how do we get feedback from them? We send them a survey, like after they left and after they're back on. Okay, school starts tomorrow. Oh, my gosh, my head's in a different place. So, through hospitality, we do really unique feedback, data gathering and we'll actually go on site and interview people while they're on site and turn it into an experience that's branded for the, the business, and it becomes an asset for them. And we get real feedback, like legit, conversational, what's going on now? Feedback, and it's what do you do with that? Right, well, we will tell you and help you with what to do with that, but look what you did with that and it's only because a simple conversation, but we don't. We don't facilitate those and it's the most value 25%, like that's a big deal.

Speaker 1: 49:27

Huge so it always comes down to communicating and and doing what's obvious.

Speaker 2: 49:34

Absolutely. I mean, it's like it's it's, it's tying these threads together, right, it was an operator who just said, well, we're going to do it, but just do this. And they didn't care enough and they didn't put enough effort in early on and they didn't iterate. They just opened the door and they put what's on the menu and like all the other spots around the area, right. They put burgers and steaks and chicken and fish right and they just let it run and they didn't you know, have great connection to their management.

Speaker 2: 49:59

The manager didn't have great, you know, relations with the staff, and so all these communication lines broke down and they just were unsatisfied. Well, no one spends any money here. Well, there's they want to, but you don't know how to, you know, connect with them and understand it. You know, so it's, it's, it's really so many things, and you're right, we were talking about this. I recognize how we're, you know, explaining just the complications and food and beverage, but that's where it's easy for us, right? So we've been doing this, only this, for 20 plus years, you know.

Speaker 1: 50:31

Right.

Speaker 2: 50:31

And our team is, you know, like they're all. You know high quality operators, you know chefs and service personnel and etc. And they love the outdoors. Right, we're dispersed across the US in these places where we love to be out, in this environment. We love connecting with people and sharing these connections. We love doing this kind of legwork to make connections in these communities that are pretty rural, that you wouldn't think have you know, great food options and it turns out there's a lot of people there that are excited to do more because these clamping facilities or these experiential facilities are bringing a higher level of customer. And some of these like, listen, I can't. I can't do this food 365 days a year in my community because the residents can't afford to pay for. But I'll do it for your guests, I'll bring it out there three times a week or I'll do these dinners. Like they're willing to make that elevation in their operation because they know they have a client and people don't think that way.

Speaker 2: 51:28

They just look at the menu in this town and say, oh, everybody in this town eats, you know, fried fish sandwiches, so we'll just put one on our menu, but that's only because that's what the local community might be eating, or whatever it is. But there's opportunity to elevate the operators in these communities too, if you provide the right opportunity for them.

Speaker 1: 51:48

I love that. Yeah, it's the stone soup methodology, right, like it's wonderful. Okay, so we have filled an hour and I know it was so much fun talking with you. It just your, your your lovely and and you have such a beautiful vision and service minded and the whole thing. So how would you like to end this? Do you have a I don't know an inspiring? Everything you've shared is inspiring, but is there any? Do you have any final words Before we depart for now?

Speaker 2: 52:28

I don't know. I mean I think it's. You know, like I, I know that they're the food and beverage can a lot of times seem very expensive, it can seem very complex and a lot of it is foreign to most operators in this space. But all I can say is that you know it's, you don't have to be scared by the challenges Like, there are people that can help you through those challenges. And I will tell you firsthand that if you, you know, if you do it well and you start small and you're willing to iterate, you're going to find the right connection and the right level of service for your resort, for your customers.

Speaker 2: 53:05

And I think a lot of times it just helps out someone like us along to kind of hold your hand, guide you through the forest, sort of speak. But you know it's an exceptional experience and we feel, like you know food and beverage really is what's going to distinguish operators going forward. You know the space is getting more and more crowded every year and you no longer can, you know, rest on the fact that you provide an exceptional accommodation. You need to now provide more amenities and it goes beyond. You know Egyptian cotton sheets and you know, etc. Like you need to offer people solutions, and I think food and beverage has just such an outside outsized impact on the investment you make.

Speaker 1: 53:48

Perfect. How can people reach you? They want to reach out.

Speaker 2: 53:53

Yeah, outbound kitchencom, or john at outbound kitchencom.

Speaker 1: 53:58

Great. Thank you so much. It was such a pleasure, it was really fun, and we'll do this again and we'll talk about culture next time.

Speaker 2: 54:06

Sounds great. I'm excited. That's one of my favorite things, so enjoy your sunny day out there.

Speaker 1: 54:12

Yeah, outside here on zoom calls all day, but it's beautiful and you know I'm actually at this. This used to be a farm in Fort Collins and right behind me this it's called Jessup farm and this is a restaurant and in the and then there's a little coffee shop and there's a barber shop and some boutiques and another restaurant and a brew house. All in the same old buildings. But they've done some, some simple things, like the garden out back that they'll pluck the plant or whatever the herbs are to cook with and and bring it over and put it in your salad, and little things like that that just connect you to the, the location and the history of a place. All of those things create everything we were talking about. Like you can do that on your property. So call john, call me, get outside everybody before it snows. All right, all right.